[AI] Banks-Volunteers

Rajesh Asudani rajeshasudani at rbi.org.in
Fri Sep 7 02:17:34 EDT 2007


Yes, cheating/fraud is ubiquitous, and cases have happened.

But the same is true of every body, blind or not! Haven't the ATMs of 
sighted been misused?!!!

As far as receiving complaints is concerned, RBI or the bank concerned is 
not legally or morally or practically responsible for it to take any 
remedial action, as they say it, "it is at your peril".

You should have asked Mr. Sudhakar, "what action has he initiated about such 
complaints, or for that matter, can he initiate ?"

Secondly, any provision howsoever good can not be immune to abuse, same is 
with allowing ATM cards to the blind persons.

Matter about checkbook may be a little more complicated, but ATM entails no 
legal liability on the issuing bank, as far as I  know.

It is this very apprehension about reliance on a trusted person which plays 
a role in not allowing blind person to open accounts.

For instance, Mr. Sudhakar may as well argue that a blind person has 
necessarily to rely on a sighted person for filling all the forms including 
withdrawal slips, and so may not be permitted to open a single/individual 
account in any bank.

Substituting a bank official for filling the form does not make the 
transaction totally immune to any mischief.

Making accessible forms etc. always is also not a practicable option.

So what is wrong in not allowing a blind person to open an individual bank 
account?

It is this lack of abstract thinking which I am lamenting in our bigwigs.

We must convince them of their ability to think and our ability to perform, 
if necessary with appropriate assistance-technological or human, and also 
that they or anybody else can not ever make, any thing or system, 
fool-proof.

Insistence on practical demonstration is not warranted, in my opinion.

Rajesh
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "harish kotian" <hpkotian at rbi.org.in>
To: <accessindia at accessindia.org.in>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [AI] Banks-Volunteers


> Hi Rajesh
>
> All the points well taken and agreed.
>
> In my last meeting with Khaja Sudhakar, he was very apprehensive of the 
> idea
> of totally dependeending on an trusted assistaant.
>
> I put forth all these arguements to which he said he has recieved 
> complaints
> where blind persons have been cheated with their trusted confidants. I am 
> am
> also aware of such incidents.
>
> If we really want a clear cut result, then, it is necessary to demonstrate
> conclusively. Or else, we will neither get a no nor will they issue the
> card. If we have to take it legally, both of the persons are out of Mumbai
> and hence it will be logistically difficult for Kanchan to take it up.
> Otherwise, we will have to wait until a blind person is refused ATM at
> Mumbai.
>
> Harish.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rajesh Asudani" <rajeshasudani at rbi.org.in>
> To: <accessindia at accessindia.org.in>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [AI] Banks-Volunteers
>
>
>> Yes, that's what option 2 in my mail says!
>>
>> It may be done, once a blind person has memorized particular sequence of 
>> a
>> bank's ATM machine.
>>
>> But my point is:
>>
>> what is the problem in case a blind person employs option 1, i.e. seeks
>> assistance from trusted person for operating ATM?,  after all, he/she
>> would
>> have to request any trusted person to fill in the withdrawal slip if
>> he/she
>> does not have ATM and goes to branch for withdrawal.
>>
>> Moreover, no bank takes any responsibility for any misuse of ATM of
>> anybody,
>> so where does blindness figure?
>>
>> Thirdly, practically demonstrating to bigwigs is not problem at all in
>> practice,
>>
>> but do you not think it is an affront on our dignity and an indication of
>> poor capability on their part to think abstractly?
>>
>> It is a matter of principle.
>>
>> I have, many times, operated my ATM successfully alone without any
>> assistance merely by memorizing the sequence of options/menus, but will 
>> in
>> no case, go and demonstrate merely because an arm-chair philosopher wants
>> me
>> to proove to him/her that I can do so!
>>
>> Moreover, such a modality of operation ought to be adopted when there is
>> absolutely nobody to assist or anybody whom you could trust, for in case
>> of
>> a slightest lapse in memory or any defect in machine, a blind person 
>> would
>> get stuck and would have to necessarily seek the assistance of a
>> person-trustworthy or not.
>>
>> Let those who would demonstrate do so. I think time has come for more
>> drastic measures!
>>
>> Rajesh
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Harish Kotian" <harish at accessindia.org.in>
>> To: <accessindia at accessindia.org.in>
>> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AI] Banks-Volunteers
>>
>>
>>> Hi Rajesh
>>> At this juncture, we need to demo by a totally blind using ATM's without
>>> assistance using the sequence of operation.
>>> Harish.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Rajesh Asudani" <rajeshasudani at rbi.org.in>
>>> To: <accessindia at accessindia.org.in>
>>> Cc: <kazasudhakar at rbi.org.in>; <subratadas at rbi.org.in>;
>>> <k.ramkrishna at idbi.co.in>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AI] Banks-Volunteers
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, the blind person may operate ATM machines in any one of the
>>>> following
>>>> ways:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Simplest and by far the most common way is to take assistance of
>>>> one's
>>>> trusted sighted person;
>>>> 2. By remembering the exact sequence of options/menus after being told
>>>> once
>>>> by anybody;
>>>> 3. By listening to talking menus/options, in case it is provided;
>>>> 4. touch screen machines without talking features, not operable, but
>>>> manageable with assistance of one's trusted partner.
>>>>
>>>> It would be unfair to usher in a blind volunteer in a new ATM booth, 
>>>> not
>>>> having talking features, without acquainting her/him with sequence of
>>>> menus/options, and concluding that she/he can not operate ATM.
>>>>
>>>> I can comprehend no issue in allowing a blind person use ATM in any
>>>> manner
>>>> 1, or 2, above, she/he wishes, even if banks may not be compelled at
>>>> this
>>>> juncture to install talking once. They may, inn all fairness, be
>>>> compelled
>>>> to install at least one talking ATM machine in a wide area, or by any
>>>> count,
>>>> not to universalize touch screens.
>>>>
>>>> We must convince bigwigs that no bank takes responsibility for any
>>>> misuse
>>>> of
>>>> ATM of any customer, so blindness is immaterial.
>>>> Showing them practically how blind may use ATM, either by remembering 
>>>> or
>>>> by
>>>> assistance from one's trusted partner, or by listening to talking
>>>> prompting,
>>>> is tantamount to a move when women were, in the beginning, asked to
>>>> furnish
>>>> a medical certificate about their fitness to operate a 
>>>> typewriter!!!!!!!
>>>> Oh, god! Where has the intellect and abstract thinking vanished!!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Rajesh
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Pamnani" <kanchanpamnani at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: <accessindia at accessindia.org.in>
>>>> Cc: <kazasudhakar at rbi.org.in>; <subratadas at rbi.org.in>; "K.Ramkrishna"
>>>> <k.ramkrishna at idbi.co.in>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:06 PM
>>>> Subject: [AI] Banks-Volunteers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Need Help Urgently
>>>>>
>>>>> need 3 Volunteers from Mumbai or volunteers who are willing to come to
>>>>> Mumbai who will demonstrate to the RBI bigwigs that the Visually
>>>>> challenged can and do use A T M.
>>>>> The bank does not matter since all banks have branches close to the R 
>>>>> B
>>>>> I
>>>>> in Fort area of Mumbai.
>>>>> My first strategy of sending complaints to the RBI Officials does not
>>>>> seem
>>>>> to have worked fully.Some benefitted but in some cases the  banks are
>>>>> adamant they are burying their heads like ostriches and not giving
>>>>> proper
>>>>> answers. None of them say no but none of them are willing to put it in
>>>>> writing because they know that they will be sued. There are currently 
>>>>> 2
>>>>> cases amongst our members which need to be resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>> The plan is to show the R B I officials that we can use ATM therefore
>>>>> they
>>>>> need not fear for our security.
>>>>> Lets see.
>>>>> Kanchan Pamnani
>>>>> Advocate & Solicitor
>>>>> 9, Suleman Chambers,
>>>>> Battery Street, Colaba,
>>>>> Mumbai - 400 039.
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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